Houston we have a debate.

Re: Re: David Bellamy comment Thanks and respect for that.

You said:
"I don't really believe that the far right started this global warming mess. Or let me if you will make a more bold statement. Far right rich people would rape and pillage the land for profit, druther than confuse the issue."

Yes, I can accept that, but to be fair it is not really what I was saying in my post.

Here is what I said:
"The global government myth was created by far-right wing think tanks to confuse the issues about climate change."

In far-right circles in the US, the UN is characterised as some kind of socialist body intent on world domination. I, personally, can't accept that. As the UN sponsor the IPCC, the same far-right groups and organisations oppose anything that is stated by the IPCC. This is great for the oil companies, who are dreading legislation to curb carbon emissions, in the same way that tobacco companies dreaded legislation to curb consumption of nicotine in the 1970's.

I don't know where you live, but I live in the EU. The way that many Europeans view the US is that is controlled by corporations rather than Government. Unrestricted capitalism has led to control of government by corporate funds rather than votes. Check-out how much money was poured into the TeaParty movement and right-wing think-tanks by Koch Industries alone.

My personal position is that the power of corporations should be held to account by the government - that there should be legal and financial controls on the free market.

Free-market capitalism has failed the US and the world very badly. But the alternative in not communism, it is social democracy.

Cheers and best wishes,

Herecomesthefatlady


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To: Herecomesthefatlady


I do not know how to respond with greater than my personal opinion.

No governmental system will prosper unless there is an overriding high level of honesty and integrity amongst the vast majority of the people. Because of mans inherent tendency towards greed they all fail. America has prospered extraordinarily well because the free market system allows for boom and bust; which weeds out the corrupt and teaches the foolish by failure that honesty is the best policy.

The greatest failure of the recent boom which lasted from 1982 to 2005(my own personal determination) was that there was no great bust which pulled up the corrupt. It occurs as naturally as a crop growing from seeds in a farmers field. It is the natures way. It is God's way. In this many different groups wanted to narcissistically claim credit for what was not theirs to have.

Social democracies are not the answer. Social Democracies are about men forcing other men to do what they want.......

Wealthy corporations were able too perchance buy into the political system because they had the cash to do so. In a bust they have much less money to pay politicians and thus less able to influence the process. As far as a corporation poring money into a "Tea Party". There is no such official party in the US. It is a movement. It is a movement of the people for the constitution and against the established corruption found in both parties. Not just against the Democrats.

If you live in the EU you have no real idea of how every little law has been made that has inhibited the creativity and enthusiastic participation of the general population in the economy. Not only has it made it more difficult to get in; it has made it so those who have managed to get involved, nearly impossible to stay in and grow to become the large employers that are a part of the economical food chain.

The rest of the world has forever been under the rule of monarchs, oligarchs, and dictatorial regimes; where as the continental United States has never been under the thumb of any one man or group. Every time any one man or group has tried that here has failed and been destroyed. This land shall not brook any ideology as dominant over another. The only ideals that exists are the ones that let people truly choose for them selves save that it not trample on the rights of the people enumerated under the constitution.

We have paid in blood for that right, and will pay in blood to keep that right again here on this soil but we shall not revolt; save at the ballot box. If the world thinks the constitution needs to be replaced then I recommend it send it's armies here and try and take it from us by feat of arms.

I know that you must be a peaceable person so I am not directing this vitriol at you personally but rather at the ideology that has so distorted the rest of the worlds views about the individual peoples of the US.

My apologies.

Be blessed.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: David Bellamy comment I offer my deepest respect to you for your honest and well presented answer.

I love the US as much as I do the UK where I live - please don't take me for being a xenophobe. I studied in the US and have many great friends there. While I was there I befriended some of the kindest and most generous people I've ever met. But objectively, the US represents only about 5% of the global population - and consumes 24% of global resources. This is the first bad thing about the free-market economy.

Where I think that we are in disagreement is when you say 'America has prospered extraordinary well - because of the free-market economy'. It most certainly has - I quite agree - but at a great cost to other nations and ultimately to itself. You are absolutely right that man has an "inherent tendency towards greed" but this is just as much a problem with the free-market as it is with other systems of government. When I say that corporations are funding the tea party movement (sorry, I should have added the word 'movement') I was factually correct. And in my opinion, the corporations are only doing what happens in a free-market - working exclusively in their own interests - not the interests of the people of America, or the world. This is the second bad thing with the free-market economy.

The world is finite in it's resources and free-markets can only operate successfully in times of growth (more stuff every year). Obviously, this can't happen forever. This is the third bad thing about the free-market economy.

I don't think that the current economic crisis is going to be over quickly. I think that there is a good chance that it will never be over. And what caused the recession? In my opinion it was unfettered greed. Capitalism.

Democracy is more important than a free-market, and although it is not perfect, as Winston Churchill said "it's the best we've got".

God bless,

Herecomesthefatlady
Sent to: erksron
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I must most respectfully disagree in that capitalism in America is unfettered. If anything it is over regulated here to the point that frankly the industrial base has declined to the point now that only 17% of the workforce is employed in manufacturing. That means that the rest are working in services, government, or crime. Ya Crime is big business here in the US. Apprx 200 billion US(my estimate).

The reason the economic crises is not going away is because of a lack of home grown factories. The reason for this is they left for cheaper labor overseas. The cure; raise tariffs. No factories here, 'no little people' working who are the prime consumers(98%) of that massive 24% of the world GDP. The Rich in America only consume 2%. {I heard 25% but 24 is close enough.} The reason the world is not consuming is because it is not in their culture to do so, and it is going to take 20 to 40 years to develope that.

I do believe this supports my previous argument that if it is not but greed that has led some highly educated men(literally) to backdoor bribe congressmen to make some very anti-competitive laws and between that and industrial and corporate espionage (lots of that going on) plus some; now, very lax laws involving sales in many areas especially the big ticket items, you end up with consumers getting cheated. You almost have to know the code words in the advertisements for; this is junk, and you sure need to look at the picture to make sure they are not lying about the product. <

All of this falls under the heading of integrity, honesty, and a sincere desire to provide the best possible product at the lowest possible price.

US goods used to have the best reputation here, and now I don't know if there is hardly anything made in the US at all.

Again dishonesty is the norm. It is far more complicated than that. So much has to do with a legal system where If you don't have the big bucks for a good aggressive attorney you might as well write off your purchase no matter how costly it was.

Big corporations have played there part by going along with lowered economic borders, but it was for the purpose of getting the goods made overseas cheap. If you do that and put people out of work who is going to buy your stuff? No one. That was just foolish, short sited thinking on these supposedly highly educated men. Not backing up product warranties that is just plain old crooked.

This world has resources untapped so massive that the whole world could be prosperous. With the new technologies coming into mainstream manufacturing there is more energy available than man will ever use from now till the end of mans tenure on this planet. All we need to get things going is Honesty, Truth, Integrity, and Fair minded people at the top of these corporations. This big corporate attitude is the same fascist mentality during the days of Nazi Germany. It is like the third beast combined with the first and second beast of the book of Daniel. I presuppose that also like the Beast that had one of its heads wounded in Revelations.

Sorry. I can't help making the comparison. I do not disagree with you at all on the cause of the current economic morass in that it is big corporations causing the malaise; but I will probably not be able to find any to agree with my solution. I keep hoping though.

I am one of those angry Tea Partyers.....Forcing our congressmen back to the constitution and making, government right, and honest is a start. We are going to do it again in two years.

I have a bunch of other ideas too, but this format likely does not give me incentive to be too long winded. My typing skills and grammer are bad, and it is a frustration to me.

I know that most people overseas will not be able to understand but that is because they have been lied to on a magnificent scale. It all has to be done according to the constitution of it will never get back to a purring economic engine and I fear the world is going to shake itself apart because of this.